I'm not sure how I would feel about the news that my lifestyle can be boiled down to a certain gene. And guess what? With this special gene therapy we can cure you straight(or vice versa). It's interesting, but I think there are aspects to this we won't be able to scientifically quantify.
This is the biggest issue I have with this. It's not a cure. Homosexuality is not a disease, and should not ever be treated as such. This is why a lot of that scientific research was flushed. Could you imagine the mass killing that would occur when you started to genetically change people to better suit your views? Maybe to solve actual sicknesses that killed people, but to change something that has never caused direct harm to people? That's Aryan race stuff! Blonde hair and blue eyes for everyone! Why change what isn't broken? I wouldn't want to be sleeping one day, get injected with a needle and wake up as Jenny the subservient house wife, or as Bob the exact same as every other man Jenkinson. If we start with one thing, it'll escalate, and the world will shift until it resembles the movie GATTACA. I do not wish to ever live in a world like that.
EDIT: My edit derails a bit.
I don't wish for any of my descendants to live like that. And even if they did do this, and everyone was the exact same, people would STILL go out of their way to proclaim how they are superior to you! It's who we are! I don't approve of any of that. And then there would be wars over how to make people even better! One man would believe that his slightly whiter shade of skin and that his lack of an ability to punch through steel should be augmented and given to the whole race, while another man may believe that we should become floating brains that reproduce by budding so as to promote a lack of individuality! There would still be war, there would still be famine, and shit would not get any better. We would find more things to fight about.
This is the biggest issue I have with this. It's not a cure. Homosexuality is not a disease, and should not ever be treated as such. This is why a lot of that scientific research was flushed. Could you imagine the mass killing that would occur when you started to genetically change people to better suit your views? Maybe to solve actually sicknesses that killed people, but to change something that has never caused direct harm to people? That's Aryan race stuff! Blonde hair and blue eyes for everyone! Why change what isn't broken? I wouldn't want to be sleeping one day, get injected with a needle and wake up as Jenny the subservient house wife, or as Bob the exact same as every other man Jenkinson. If we start with one thing, it'll escalate, and the world will shift until it resembles the movie GATTACA. I do not wish to ever live in a world like that.
EDIT: I don't wish for any of my descendants to live like that.
Amen. That was exactly what I was going for there.
As to homosexuals being a product of a fallen world, no more so than me and everyone else who has ever lived. I reject the notion that LGBT need to pitied. That's the same excuse that was used to justify slavery. There is not one iota of support for this in scripture, just some bigoted people trying to justify their fear and hatred.
I firmly believe that God created everything, but my jury is still out on how He did it. At the moment, I am still in the literal 7 days of creation camp, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. If it was in fact evolution, I would argue that God was active in directing the flow of evolution and He left nothing to chance.
I'm not sure how I would feel about the news that my lifestyle can be boiled down to a certain gene. And guess what? With this special gene therapy we can cure you straight(or vice versa).
[Commercial begins with a gay man in a locker room, longingly watching a couple other guys] Do you find yourself attracted to others of the opposite sex? Are you often put down, or rejected by urges you just cannot control? [The two guys look at the gay man with some disgust, shake their heads and walk away. Gay man is sad.] Well despair no more! With Gayaway, you'll no longer be the odd one out. You can have friendships that won't involve awkward moments in the locker room, your parents won't disown you, and God will love you again. [God gives a thumbs up and a sparkling smile.] Get Gayaway today, it will change your life! [Previously gay man now has two beautiful women on his arms. He's quite happy. The two guys from before are in the background, looking jealous.] "Being straight is great!" [Women giggle; they all smile at each other and walk away as the screen fades. The assumption to be derived here is somewhat obvious (and very ironic).]
Wow. What a world it would be if homosexuality was like a disease to be cured.
Apologies for the tangent, I found this possibility rather amusing. Carry on.
I firmly believe that God created everything, but my jury is still out on how He did it. At the moment I am still in the literal 7 days of creation camp, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. If it was in fact evolution, I would argue that God was active in directing the flow of evolution and He left nothing to chance.
Just dropping in to say that while I strongly disagree with Keleynal's religious views, I really respect his kind-heartedness and willingness to confront issues that other people who describe themselves as "born-again Christians" would dismiss categorically. Not just in this thread, either.
I will, however, recommend looking into evolution more closely. Among the scientific community, the jury is not out by any stretch of the imagination. Essentially every reputable scientist accepts evolution by natural selection as the cornerstone of modern biology. All inquiry to that effect has not only failed to overturn evolution, but has in fact confirmed and elaborated upon it. Even discoveries in fields that were initially tangentially related, such as genetics, only proved to vindicate Darwin's initial claims. This kind of synergy is the hallmark of a robust theory. Competing hypotheses (notably "Intelligent Design"), besides being fraught with ideological baggage, lack a cogent methodology and can't withstand peer review. There's a reason their proponents have to found their own journals to get any papers published.
If you're concerned about how to reconcile Christianity with evolution, look to people like Francis Collins for answers. He's a brilliant scientist - the head of the Human Genome Project - and also a devout Christian. The core tenets of Christianity won't get in the way of acknowledging facts for what they are.
Talk Origins is a great resource for addressing common concerns. It hasn't been updated in a while, but the information is still quite good. And remember, evolution is only intended to explain biodiversity, i.e. how different species developed their unique characteristics. Abiogenesis, the actual origin of life, is a separate problem entirely (although we've made some progress toward understanding it using principles akin to natural selection).
Last minor gripe before ending this derailment: I'd recommend against calling it "Darwinism." Evolution has become much more refined since Darwin first posited it. As I mentioned above, On the Origin of Species doesn't account for genetics, although that later became integral to evolution. It's now the result of countless scientists' research, and can't be undermined by discrediting one man.
Thanks for the kind words, Red. I definitely appreciate you and this forum for providing such excellent discussion. If none of us persuaded the other, at least we'll all understand each other better.
I also enjoy talking with kel on this subject. I don't agree with your beliefs but I like how you promote discussion. So often religious discussion imdmediately ends in "I'm right you're wrong *plugs ears* lalalalalala" We have a decent group here.
edit : *prepares for suicide bombers/crusades/genocide/lynch m9obs
I can't for the life of me understand the "It's a choice" argument. Why don't you try and stray against your "choice" for a night. Or a week. Don't want to? Fundamentally repulsed by the idea? What are the implications there?
Believe that God fundamentally has a plan for everyone and has created everyone? What if dealing with homosexuality in a largely socially un-accepting world was a part of the path God created for him/her. Who the F*** are you (the "royal" you) to judge God's decree? About to say that God would never do that? So you're telling me you totally understand God now? Oh, you're referencing a multi-thousand year old book of allegory in order to justify that belief of homosexuality being something that God would never condone?
Oh, I get it now. Those parts of the bible are wholly out dated and need to be revised to keep up with the times. Right? Then how do you know your argument isn't also wholly out of date and needs revision.
How about the possibility of God's plan for you being more acceptance and support of the lives of the people around you, regardless of race/color/creed/orientation instead of rigidly adhering to a book that's been adapted, translated, and revised more times than any other book in the history of history. And that portions of his divinely intuited book were meant to exist not as example, but as a means of perpetually stirring the pot of intellectual development amongst disagreeing parties in order to cultivate a greater base of compassion for those for whom we, otherwise, might not have opened our minds/hearts to.
I can't for the life of me understand the "It's a choice" argument. Why don't you try and stray against your "choice" for a night. Or a week. Don't want to? Fundamentally repulsed by the idea? What are the implications there?
Believe that God fundamentally has a plan for everyone and has created everyone? What if dealing with homosexuality in a largely socially un-accepting world was a part of the path God created for him/her. Who the F*** are you (the "royal" you) to judge God's decree? About to say that God would never do that? So you're telling me you totally understand God now? Oh, you're referencing a multi-thousand year old book of allegory in order to justify that belief of homosexuality being something that God would never condone?
Oh, I get it now. Those parts of the bible are wholly out dated and need to be revised to keep up with the times. Right? Then how do you know your argument isn't also wholly out of date and needs revision.
How about the possibility of God's plan for you being more acceptance and support of the lives of the people around you, regardless of race/color/creed/orientation instead of rigidly adhering to a book that's been adapted, translated, and revised more times than any other book in the history of history. And that portions of his divinely intuited book were meant to exist not as example, but as a means of perpetually stirring the pot of intellectual development amongst disagreeing parties in order to cultivate a greater base of compassion for those for whom we, otherwise, might not have opened our minds/hearts to.
Well that escalated quickly. I sort of ignored that point because being bi and having had a gay boyfriend I've seen this used before. I've even argued it in person and results have always been that the person in question told me I was wrong. You'll have more luck convincing a stone to cry.
Apologies if it's asshole-ish. Blunt was more or less what I was going for.
If the best rebuttal to that is "No, you're just wrong", then there's really no more line of dialogue to go into anyway. The whole belief system isn't upheld because the belief is inherently true or false, it's just upheld because the person wants it to be. It's deeper than logic.
In general, I think that's okay. I've got some strange crazy beliefs about how the world works that are generally unsubstantiated through anything outside of personal experience and personal intuition.
Only mine don't ostracize a group of people trying to live their lives to the fullest.
(I also rarely debate a point to anyone in person. Arguing in this way usually results in a pyrrhic victory. Web = limited options for persuasion.)
Major props to Kel for openly exploring a top that would, otherwise, be two or three posts long.
Apologies if it's asshole-ish. Blunt was more or less what I was going for.
If the best rebuttal to that is "No, you're just wrong", then there's really no more line of dialogue to go into anyway. The whole belief system isn't upheld because the belief is inherently true or false, it's just upheld because the person wants it to be. It's deeper than logic.
In general, I think that's okay. I've got some strange crazy beliefs about how the world works that are generally unsubstantiated through anything outside of personal experience and personal intuition.
Only mine don't ostracize a group of people trying to live their lives to the fullest.
(I also rarely debate a point to anyone in person. Arguing in this way usually results in a pyrrhic victory. Web = limited options for persuasion.)9
Major props to Kel for openly exploring a top that would, otherwise, be two or three posts long.
I don't use that exact line of thought. more logicand things can relate to. An example of being: why would anyone CHOOSE to life a life where they are so ostracized and so horribly treated,abandoned by their own family and commonlymurdered for their choice? Why also would someone choose such a horrible life and then commit suicide rather than simply choosing not to be gay? why would young homosexual kids put into these conversion therapies be at such a great risk for self destructive behavior? I argue logic standpoints.
Just my 2 cents again, as we have all gotten out there that nobody's views will change. Neither has mine, i still view homosexuality as a LIFECHOICE and that God created us with a purposed. I still believe the bible and all that it entails, even the parts that don't make sense in this society. The views on "evolution" and "genetics" i will never understand. Why would you look for answers in a needle when all you need is faith in God?
While being attracted to members of your own sex is completely involuntary, I will grant you that acting on that attraction is a choice. But imagine that you are in love with someone - deeply, passionately, truly in love, in every capacity that matters - and a large portion of society demands that you don't express that love in any way. They don't know you or your beloved, but they believe your love should not, or even does not truly, exist. You are at best pitied or discouraged, at worst scorned, mistrusted, or threatened with violence. You are told you are damaged, confused, or that your nature is an affront to the very being that created you.
So there is your choice. Do you ignore your feelings and find someone that society accepts, a pale imitation of the love you could have had? Do you bottle it up, essentially amputating the part of yourself that makes love possible? Or do you ignore the naysayers and carve something beautiful out of a cynical world?
Remember that many people presented with this decision choose suicide instead. Some of them are kids.
You peaked my interest again Baldo. Just out of curiosity, do you and people who follow a similar religious path abstain from medicine, ie flu shots?
More specifically, if you do (or eventually have) children, will you be putting them through a standard schedule of immunizations? (Even think about a cat or dog if its easier). I'm just wondering how the 'not looking for answers in a needle' thing relates to a baby getting immunizations against Menigitis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, etc,?
I'm twisting your words here, but I'm just wondering if that's along the same lines
You peaked my interest again Baldo. Just out of curiosity, do you and people who follow a similar religious path abstain from medicine, ie flu shots?
More specifically, if you do (or eventually have) children, will you be putting them through a standard schedule of immunizations? (Even think about a cat or dog if its easier). I'm just wondering how the 'not looking for answers in a needle' thing relates to a baby getting immunizations against Menigitis, Polio, Measles, Mumps, etc,?
I'm twisting your words here, but I'm just wondering if that's along the same lines
Good twist, there is always a fine line when talking about genetics. I was being specific with my statement earlier and you broadened it. The statement was meant as a figure of speech and wasn't meant to take literally.
Yes, my children will be getting the immunization but i never said i wanted to know what chromosome they have (figure of speech) I want to know what the baby is gender wise, is the baby healthy. (yes i know knowing what chromosomes the baby has tells whether the baby is boy or girl)
That wasn't the direction i was going with my statement.
Good twist, there is always a fine line when talking about genetics. I was being specific with my statement earlier and you broadened it. The statement was meant as a figure of speech and wasn't meant to take literally.
Yes, my children will be getting the immunization but i never said i wanted to know what chromosome they have (figure of speech) I want to know what they baby is gender wise, is the baby healthy. (yes i know knowing what chromosomes the baby has tells whether the baby is boy or girl)
That wasn't the direction i was going with my statement.
Good twist, there is always a fine line when talking about genetics. I was being specific with my statement earlier and you broadened it. The statement was meant as a figure of speech and wasn't meant to take literally.
Yes, my children will be getting the immunization but i never said i wanted to know what chromosome they have (figure of speech) I want to know what the baby is gender wise, is the baby healthy. (yes i know knowing what chromosomes the baby has tells whether the baby is boy or girl)
That wasn't the direction i was going with my statement.
I have no idea how you, or others in your position could possibly subscribe to that. It seems so completely alien to me! I have thought that the ambition to better ones self is a basic human drive that nearly every human possesses. Seeing someone simply turn a blind eye on understanding the universe because someone tells you "This is how it is," just boggles my mind! I can't conceive the notion of not asking why. When we're growing up we always ask why, why is the sky blue, why is that, why, why, why, why, why, why, until our mothers/fathers told us to shut up. What is it that makes you not want to ask these questions? What makes you want to not look further? I've spent every minute of my life trying to understand every facet of the universe around me, how is it that you're so comfortable not asking these questions or searching?
I can't for the life of me understand the "It's a choice" argument. Why don't you try and stray against your "choice" for a night. Or a week. Don't want to? Fundamentally repulsed by the idea? What are the implications there?
Believe that God fundamentally has a plan for everyone and has created everyone? What if dealing with homosexuality in a largely socially un-accepting world was a part of the path God created for him/her. Who the F*** are you (the "royal" you) to judge God's decree? About to say that God would never do that? So you're telling me you totally understand God now? Oh, you're referencing a multi-thousand year old book of allegory in order to justify that belief of homosexuality being something that God would never condone?
Oh, I get it now. Those parts of the bible are wholly out dated and need to be revised to keep up with the times. Right? Then how do you know your argument isn't also wholly out of date and needs revision.
How about the possibility of God's plan for you being more acceptance and support of the lives of the people around you, regardless of race/color/creed/orientation instead of rigidly adhering to a book that's been adapted, translated, and revised more times than any other book in the history of history. And that portions of his divinely intuited book were meant to exist not as example, but as a means of perpetually stirring the pot of intellectual development amongst disagreeing parties in order to cultivate a greater base of compassion for those for whom we, otherwise, might not have opened our minds/hearts to.
A perfectly legitimate argument, Dash. I need to research it more before I feel comfortable making a reply. I have read some great stuff on this question, but I don't recall everything off the top of my head. I'm not a theologian by trade. I promise not to dodge it, but meet in head on.
As far as homosexuality being a choice or a natural predisposition, I think both can factor into the situation. Consider cases where an individual is straight for 30-40 years, then suddenly has a fling with another man. Was that man suppressing his true self all those years, or did he decide to try something different for whatever reasons?
I've met several individuals who used to be gay. One of them said that he still dealt with feelings towards other men, but he was making a decision not to act upon it because he was now convinced that it was immoral. He had no plans to date or marry because he still felt no attraction to women.
Another gentleman came to my college and spoke at a chapel. He was so effeminate in his manner of speaking and movements that many in the crowd were uncomfortable. He had been gay his entire life, from about age 10 if I recall correctly. In his mid-20s he was living as a woman and months away from getting a sex change operation. I don't recall exactly what impacted him, but he became a Christian and decided that the right thing for him to do was to drop that lifestyle. He said it was a long, difficult process and he would never be completely free of the lifestyle, referencing his feminine manner of acting. He called it "scars from his past."
Now, was he born gay and is now denying himself, or was he born straight and fell into a lifestyle to help him deal with personal trauma (he had been abused by male relatives and had no mother present). Or maybe God worked a miracle in his life that enabled him to walk away from a lifestyle he was naturally predisposed to. We can argue it in circles all day long. I really don't care. What I care about is that this man was hurting deeply and the lifestyle he was living was not satisfying or healing him, it was just glossing over the wounds. He did eventually marry and have children, but his message wasn't that God made him straight- that was only a secondary effect. What he found in Christ completed him in ways that he had previously thought only becoming a woman could do. He now has a ministry that reaches out to the LGBT community. His message is not God wants to heal you of homosexuality, it's God wants to heal your heart and complete your life.
Not every person he has brought to Christ has also left the lifestyle. He doesn't see it as necessary to force them into anything. The important thing is that they are on the path; it's up to God to prompt them to make any changes, it's up to them to respond. God loves them before they respond to Him, and he loves them just as much afterward. He doesn't require them to be straight before entering His family. Christians who focus on the lifestyle rather than the person are doing it wrong.
Anecdotes don't prove a thing, but they do provide real life perspective for issues that can be treated as theoretical or clinical.
That talk is what moved me out of homophobia and into compassion. It's the same process of healing that I've seen in people trying to fill thier lives with anything and everything except God. It was at that moment that I realized that members of the LGBT community were not untouchables. They were not to be feared and hated, but loved and accepted just like everyone else God created. Do they have issues to deal with? Of course, just like everyone else in the world, and God is more interested in the state of our souls than the state of our love life.
