Christian and Homosexual Stereotypes

[Keleynal]

Trist, thanks for the hard questions, I love them.

I don't have all the answers, not even for myself, but I'm trying to express myself as best as I can.

In regards to desires vs actions- the realization of desire does not always result in sin. If I am hungry, I can buy food and eat it and not sin. Or I could kill someone's dog and cook it, and that would be sin. Both were ways of satisfying my need for food, but only one was done in a proper way. In a similar manner, I can feel sexual desire towards another person, and I now have to decide what to do about it. According to my understanding of the Bible, it is sinful to have sex with anyone you are not currently married to. That puts me into a position where I have to exercise self control, a higher form of reasoning that separates man from animal instinct and stimulus-response reactions. I have to delay the gratification of my desire until I can do it without sinning. Easier said than done.

Now add the caveat of homosexuality, and it gets even more messy. So now we're in a situation where the object of our desire is something we can NEVER have without sin. This type of relationship isn't the only thing I am expected to completely abstain from as a Christian, but it is one of the hardest since it is so person and tied to such a basic need. This is a tough answer, but no matter how I look at it, I can't get around that God has designated that type of relationship as taboo.

Since I have chosen to base my life and beliefs on the Bible, I can't pick and choose which teachings are easy and which are hard and only follow the ones I like. As soon as I did that, my whole faith would come crashing down because then my faith would be based on my own wisdom instead of God's. I hope that I'll be able to articulate a good reason why, apart from the Bible says so. For now, for me, I just trust that God knows what He is talking about.

And that opens up another dilemma for Christians- if homosexuality is not a choice, then God has effectively condemned a part of society to either live in perpetual sin or forever deny who they are. This seems incredibly cruel, but no less cruel than any other of the unfairness that we have to put up with while living in a broken world. Some people are born with both male and female organs and characteristics. What about them? Do they have to choose, and then hope they chose right? Or do they get a free pass to be whatever they feel? There are no easy answers here for a Christian, so the easy path is to blame the homosexual. They chose it, it's all on them, don't look at me, don't look at God.

I can't go there. I have to surrender at this point because I just don't know, nor am I qualified to make that judgement call. But I believe that God is. I believe that one day everyone that ever lived will stand before God and be judged by the only one in the universe qualified to judge mankind. I believe that on that day no one will be able to look God in the eye and say "You have treated me unjustly." I have no idea how God is going to sort all this out, but He will.

Here's what I can do, though. I can show the same love to others that God has shown to me. God didn't wait until I stopped sinning to start loving me. He didn't wait for me to say that I was sorry before He died for me. God's heart desire is to restore mankind to a perfect relationship with Him. That path of restoration is the same for everyone, but the journey feels different because everyone has different challenges to overcome. I leave it to God to condemn or redeem, my job is to love.

You are absolutely right about the double standard of heterosexual sin vs homosexual sin. I say again that they are all equally sin. The sinfulness has not changed, only society's view of it has changed. In the 1920's it would have been scandalous to get a divorce or to cheat on a spouse. In early TV shows even married couples had separate beds with a nightstand in the middle. Slowly, things became more socially acceptable, so now we are to the point where the divorce rate among Christians is just as high as among non Christians. No one bats an eye, because now it is socially acceptable. The same thing is now happening with homosexuality. I give it no more than 10 years from now and all things homosexual will be as acceptable as all things heterosexual. Many will herald that as a win, but the sad truth is that we are justifying sin, and Christians have no one to blame but themselves.

This post is already too long, but I do want to address your concern over the "ambassador for Christ tactic" that you took exception to. It's true that many find faith in dark times. That's because of how we are wired as people. When we are comfortable and all is well, we don't look for help, we think we don't need it, but it is a false security. Jesus said that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom. Time after time in the Bible, God put people into really terrible positions to get their attention. He had Moses removed from his position of royalty and got his people released from slavery the hard way. Then he made them wander for 40 years. Then they had to fight terrible wars. Then they were constantly overrun by enemies and had to be saved again and again. This wasn't because God didn't love them, quite the opposite. He was exposing their true helplessness and need for Him. God would rather I acted righteously then led an easy life. Often, when some one gets "saved" things get worse for them because they suddenly feel convicted for doing things they used to think was OK. This is a positive thing for a Christian, but it can make life much harder.

Christians have been persecuted and killed from early times to this very day. We have it easy here, but I would have a hard time writing this in Iran. You said you couldn't believe that anyone would believe anything that makes their life or other's lives harder. Well, believe it, because Christianity is hard and anyone that says otherwise isn't doing it right.

Lastly, I tried to make the point in my last post that real evangelism requires real love. Real love. Not fake stuff put on to "make friends" as a pretext to getting them saved and getting brownie points. I have a huge problem with that kind of hypocrisy. Christ reached out in love to people that needed Him, even the ones that didn't realize that they did. He went to their house and ate with them. Sometimes, because of the true love that was shown to them, they opened up and allowed Him to speak into thier lives. Zacheus is a great example of that. Did Christ have a hidden agenda when he went to Zacheus' house? You betcha, but he didn't put any requirements of prerequisites on His love. He just gave Zacheus an opportunity to respond.

The Bible says that I am to let my light shine before men in such a way that they see my good works and glorify my Father that is in heaven. True Christianity is lived on the streets, not just in the churches. I'm sick of the apathy that pervades Christians in this country. As a group, we have failed to be a light and have compensated for it with self righteous navel gazing.

 

[Drac]

@ Kel

Now add the caveat of homosexuality, and it gets even more messy.

Meanwhile you tempt we with your sexy treads on a daily basis! The caveat of tire-sexuality is far more severe!!

Since I have chosen to base my life and beliefs on the Bible, I can't pick and choose which teachings are easy and which are hard and only follow the ones I like. As soon as I did that, my whole faith would come crashing down because then my faith would be based on my own wisdom instead of God's.

I love the way you phrased this. It's refreshing to see such an intelligent way of thinking in a person of faith. I may not share your beliefs, but I certainly can respect them!

 

[tr1age]

That part is wrong as well and should be upheld. But no, we have 13 years olds having sex now. Wtf your penis hasn't even got hair on it yet.

They put Obama into office, California and their liberals. Did they not see what he did the past 4 years?



Now i may not always do the "right" thing but i do try my hardest to do the "right" thing. As i said earlier, i am not a perfect person but i do try to stick to a standard that is down the "right" path.

Where is Obama listed in the Bible?
Where is the age in which you can have sex listed in the Bible? Marriage happened much earlier than it does now back when, so it is our society that made that happen.

As as you say, "I" try to do the right thing, so when did "I" turn into Myself and Homosexuals?

 

[Baldoraxx]

That wasn't in the bible.
That was meant for an example. Yes, the bible doesn't give us an age. It gave us room to change and advance.
It was acceptable back then because they didn't grow to 90. Old to them was 50.

I'm not forcing my opinion on someone, i'm just saying my beliefs as i said earlier. They can say screw you, which most of you have done.

 

[tr1age]

That wasn't in the bible.
That was meant for an example. Yes, the bible doesn't give us an age. It gave us room to change and advance.
It was acceptable back then because they didn't grow to 90. Old to them was 50.

I'm not forcing my opinion on someone, i'm just saying my beliefs as i said earlier. They can say screw you, which most of you have done.

Can you clarify the "Which most of you have done" part?

 

[Keleynal]

Baldo, thank you for displaying the Christian stereotype for us all.

Please, come down from the pulpit and join the rest of us mortals doing the best we can to discuss a complicated and delicate issue while hopefully building friendships instead of driving wedges. Your comments would play well in many little whitewashed churches across America, but remember where you are.

I fully support you saying exactly what you believe and why, but don't belittle or discount other people's beliefs, misguided as you think they may be. How can you expect anyone to respect your beliefs when you refuse to listen?

Is this what Jesus would do? Yell, scream, curse, and condemn? When Jesus found the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery, He did not throw stones as the law required. He got into the dirt and offered forgiveness and restoration.

Stop throwing stones, Baldo. It's making a mockery of what we say we believe.

 

[Baldoraxx]

So what i believe in is stereotypical?

I have been down here the whole time, i said i would read and listen to every comment and i have.

I may have put the wedge there but i didn't swing the hammer. I was just responding to the questions asked with all honesty.
The words that were said were said in anger. And i understand that notion but i wasn't here to belittle anyone. I never belittled anyone.

 

[tr1age]

Baldo, thank you for displaying the Christian stereotype for us all.

Please, come down from the pulpit and join the rest of us mortals doing the best we can to discuss a complicated and delicate issue while hopefully building friendships instead of driving wedges. Your comments would play well in many little whitewashed churches across America, but remember where you are.

I fully support you saying exactly what you believe and why, but don't belittle or discount other people's beliefs, misguided as you think they may be. How can you expect anyone to respect your beliefs when you refuse to listen?

Is this what Jesus would do? Yell, scream, curse, and condemn? When Jesus found the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery, He did not throw stones as the law required. He got into the dirt and offered forgiveness and restoration.

Stop throwing stones, Baldo. It's making a mockery of what we say we believe.

I think something that EVERYONE needs to understand as well here is that THIS SITE, THE FOUNDATION OF THE PEOPLE that built this site is OPEN to these kinds of discussions of course but fundamentally we believe that LBGS is working as intended.

We accept people of all colors, size, sexual orientation, and beliefs. And we will go to bat for ANY AND ALL OF THEM.

Understandably this is a touchy subject, but me myself, I enjoy these conversations. They make me mad, angry, happy, inquisitive, and all the above. But that is what life is about, talking and listening and learning.

I will NOT change my opinions of Homosexuality being a BEAUTIFUL thing.

I will however talk about it openly and listen to the other ways of thinking because I find it interesting as long as it isn't standing on the street during a Funeral for a soldier and picketing essentially "life" itself.

We are all here from one way or another, be it God or some random act of science. And in the end all we have are each other while we are here. And that is what matters.

 

[tr1age]

Kel I have a personal question... and it may come off in a weird light, but do you find yourself attracted to the same sex? I ask because it seems like perhaps you have found Christianity to help you to fight what you see as wrong?

Also, I feel as though Christianity is one of those religions that is more vocal than the others about saying: "Hey this is the ONLY religion, get on or get out." Even you Kel admitted there is that sense

This type of reaching out takes a lot of time and requires us to actually love people, something the church in America has been failing at for a long time. We prefer to hand out tracts or head out "on a mission" with Bible in hand, putting on a facade so we can feel good about trying to "win souls." I firmly believe that this is why our culture has shifted from Christian values to secular values. Not the politicians, not the liberal media, not LGBTs trying to recruit our kids (cough-paranoid delusion-cough). Those are just strawmen. We (Christians) have been the problem.

I find the idea that God put in these weird check-sums, so to say, of Homosexuality and Defects and Desires that are not "normal" to weed out the bad sheep, to be very much against that which he/she stands for. God created man in his own vision, so is that to say God is a bit gay as well? (lol a bit gay, like saying kinda pregnant)

Aren't there enough things we must fight in this world that for God to throw in a curve ball of this magnitude to be against the actual grain of love from God to us?

 

[Keleynal]

So what i believe in is stereotypical?

I have been down here the whole time, i said i would read and listen to every comment and i have.

I may have put the wedge there but i didn't swing the hammer. I was just responding to the questions asked with all honesty.
The words that were said were said in anger. And i understand that notion but i wasn't here to belittle anyone. I never belittled anyone.

Your beliefs are fine. Your delivery just needs a little more polish. What I wrote is no less controversial than what you have said.

However, I say it in humility because I know I don't have all the answers, and I say it respectfully because God loves and values everyone else in this forum just as much as He loves me.

Your anger got the best of you for a bit, happens to us all. Keep the honesty, I appreciate you dropping the anger.

 

[Drac]

I thought the whole idea of Original Sin is sort of how these 'check-sums' are explained. Being born with (as opposed to choosing) your sexual preference that could be sinful might be used as a.. test? (can't really think of a good word) of your faith and God's preaching..

 

[tr1age]

God didn't wait until I stopped sinning to start loving me. He didn't wait for me to say that I was sorry before He died for me. God's heart desire is to restore mankind to a perfect relationship with Him. That path of restoration is the same for everyone, but the journey feels different because everyone has different challenges to overcome. I leave it to God to condemn or redeem, my job is to love.

So what I get from this is that to stop guild drama I need to come back from the dead... this is an interesting idea

Sounds like a fabled version of what we go through ever day with our interactions with one another. I know the story, I was raised catholic, but I find the similarities with the simple things such as Guilds and Communities having these same issues very interesting

I also find it odd that a religion will let you "repent" for your sins, no matter what the size. "Born Again" comes from the idea that you wash away all your sins. So essentially have a fucking cocaine, fratranizing party, then repent. Never made sense to me.

 

[tr1age]

I thought the whole idea of Original Sin is sort of how these 'check-sums' are explained. Being born with (as opposed to choosing) your sexual preference that could be sinful might be used as a.. test? (can't really think of a good word) of your faith and God's preaching..

Pretty fucked up if that is the case.

 

[tr1age]

Sorry I read through your paragraph slowly so multiple posts.

The same thing is now happening with homosexuality. I give it no more than 10 years from now and all things homosexual will be as acceptable as all things heterosexual. Many will herald that as a win, but the sad truth is that we are justifying sin, and Christians have no one to blame but themselves.

The same thing might be said about slavery. Human beings evolving. Becoming civil and understanding one another better. So should we be seeing Equal rights as "justifying sin" because at one point we justified it as wrong?

My last random non sequitor is if there is no evolution and God did create man and the world. How do we explain the universe? The bible only talks about the World around us and a small bit outside of it. How do we explain a rover on Mars or a Black hole that essentially is a portal to a universe 5 billion times the size of ours? Did God create empty planets for fun? What is their purpose?

It is hard to ignore evolutionary ideas when you actually look how SMALL we are in the grand scheme of what the world and universe are really made up of.

 

[Drac]

So what I get from this is that to stop guild drama I need to come back from the dead... this is an interesting idea

Sounds like a fabled version of what we go through ever day with our interactions with one another. I know the story, I was raised catholic, but I find the similarities with the simple things such as Guilds and Communities having these same issues very interesting

I also find it odd that a religion will let you "repent" for your sins, no matter what the size. "Born Again" comes from the idea that you wash away all your sins. So essentially have a fucking cocaine, fratranizing party, then repent. Never made sense to me.

There's actually a Jewish tradition over our new years that does this. Ready for some old-school fucked-ness?

We literally swing a chicken, by its feet, around our head 3 times to transfer the last year of our transgressions to it. The chicken is then killed and fed to the poor.. (its called Kapparot if anyone wants to google it)

 

[Keleynal]

Kel I have a personal question... and it may come off in a weird light, but do you find yourself attracted to the same sex? I ask because it seems like perhaps you have found Christianity to help you to fight what you see as wrong?

I have struggled with many different things throughout my life, but homosexuality is not among them. I don't know why certain things don't appeal to me. I also haven't had any trouble with drugs, greed, or wrath. We all have our own demons to fight.

My biggest sin was lying, which from a Biblical standpoint is among the worst sins there are. In highschool I lied about just about everything, even things that I wouldn't get in trouble for telling the truth. My faith definitely helped to break me of that habit. I realized that my whole life was a lie and I didn't know who I was or what I believed. So I gave up the lying and completely gave in to God. I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 4, but I point to that moment at age 16 when I was truly saved. That was when I decided for myself that I actually bought in to all this Jesus stuff and would actually live like I meant it. I have by no means been perfect since then, but Jesus never promised it would be easy.

Also, I feel as though Christianity is one of those religions that is more vocal than the others about saying: "Hey this is the ONLY religion, get on or get out."

Almost all religions boil down to this when drawn to their logical conclusions. This is an uncomfortable thought for makind- I could be wrong and go to hell- so over the years many religions have watered down into things more palatable. But what is the truth? That's the question that drives me. I believe that absolute truth exists and it exists independent of what I or anyone else feels about it. So how can we identify what the truth is? Here comes faith stepping in. Not blindly leading me down a path that flies in the face of all reason, logic, and science, but providing evidence of the things I hope for and substance to things unseen.

For many reasons, subjective and objective, I have settled on the Bible as the sole provider of absolute truth, and God- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit- as the one and only living God. That's exclusive because by defintiion it must be if it is the truth.

I find the idea that God put in these weird check-sums, so to say, of Homosexuality and Defects and Desires that are not "normal" to weed out the bad sheep, to be very much against that which he/she stands for. God created man in his own vision, so is that to say God is a bit gay as well? (lol a bit gay, like saying kinda pregnant)

Aren't there enough things we must fight in this world that for God to throw in a curve ball of this magnitude to be against the actual grain of love from God to us?

In Genesis, the first book of the Bible, creation is recorded as being made perfect, without any sort of pitfall that could harm humanity. And then we made a choice. We chose to distrust God and find out for ourselves if sin was really as bad as God said. Well, it was and is. I don't blame God that we made that choice, but I thank Him every day taht He had a plan to redeem us back again.

 

[Ruxandra]

There's actually a Jewish tradition over our new years that does this. Ready for some old-school fucked-ness?

We literally swing a chicken, by its feet, around our head 3 times to transfer the last year of our transgressions to it. The chicken is then killed and fed to the poor.. (its called Kapparot if anyone wants to google it)

OMG I don't know why but I read this as "children".... I was like "what...no way...." it wasn't until I got to the "killed and fed to the poor" that I went back and re-read what you wrote a second time >.<

 

[Ruxandra]

I actually brought this discussion up with my husband on the ride home form work. He commented that he had read an article on a gene related to homosexuality and being curious I looked it up when I got home. It seems there has been research done into what causes homosexuality for decades (I could only find articles and research dating back to 1970 - not all of it was very nice to read about by the way :\).

It looks like some time in the 1990s scientists identified a gene marker (Xq28) that is passed through the maternal side and seems to be related to homosexuality. However, this was not 100% proven (only 99.5%) as a small percent of the subjects received the marker through the paternal side. Even with the study, the conclusion (in the 1990s) was that there are multiple factors that contribute to what causes homosexuality.

In any case, I'm still researching it since it looks like more studies are being done now but I thought it was something worth mentioning. Sorry to get all sciency in the thread ^^;

 

[Keleynal]

Your input is very welcome, Rux.

I'm not sure how I would feel about the news that my lifestyle can be boiled down to a certain gene. And guess what? With this special gene therapy we can cure you straight(or vice versa). It's interesting, but I think there are aspects to this we won't be able to scientifically quantify.

I also find it odd that a religion will let you "repent" for your sins, no matter what the size. "Born Again" comes from the idea that you wash away all your sins. So essentially have a fucking cocaine, fratranizing party, then repent. Never made sense to me.

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings of what Christianity is all about, and dates all the way to the earliest days of the church. Paul himself addresses this issue in the book of Romans. He wrote an entire treatise on how the blood of Jesus for forgives our sins and restores us to right standing with God. Then he asks the question, "What then? Should we just keep on sinning so that the forgiveness of Christ can abound? Never let it be so!" He goes on to explain that Jesus us died to FREE us from sin, not merely whitewash them away so that we'd feel ok about doing them again. Jesus came to break that cycle. No more do we have to swing chickens or kill cattle to have our sons taken from us. Jesus' sacrifice paid the cost once and for all.

To use that sacrifice as a license to sin is to turn the gift of God into a mockery, and God really doesn't appreciate being mocked. The Bible says, "That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." The resurrection of Christ is crucial because that is what validated everything that Christ said and did, so to believe n the resurrection os to accept the whole package. I find it very hard to believe that some one could truly believe in everything Jesus taught, swear to follow Him for the rest of their lives, and then live like they always have. Something is wrong with that picture, and I would argue that either the confessing or believing was not sincere. I'm not talking about people making mistakes time to time, I'm addressing your example of people saying "I can do whatever I want because my God is a puppet on a string that will let me take advantage of His naiveity." I think a lot of people with that attitude will be unpleasantly surprised.

Tristan, I find your argument for evolution based on the vastness of the universe very amusing because I use the same argument for creation- it goes like this:

God reveals Himself though creation. He desires to be sought after and known, so He purposely created reality in such a way that we would look for reasons why it is the way it is. To me, the universe is a perfect picture f the indescribable vastness of God. No discernible beginning or end in sight, just wonder after wonder beyond our ability to fully comprehend. And then I think "But God created that, so He is even more vast, more powerful, more endless. And this same God bothered to become a man and die for my sins? Answers my prayers? Heals me when Im sick? How can I not love a God like that!"

 

[NeverMore]

Go to sleep for a few hours, wake up early because I can't sleep. HUGE WALLS OF TEXT.

I did read it all however.

Spoiler

I am not a perfect person, nobody is a perfect person. That is how we were created, not Darwanism. I didn't come from a damn ape. God created us and has some expectations of us. He asks us to treat our neighbor with respect, respect our parents. God has given us free-will. We control our lives. There is no chemical discrepancy in you that tells you you have to love this type of person or that. It is your own LIFE CHOICE that decides that

.

It's not necessary to discount evolution to believe in religion. In fact, they co-exist rather easily. The thing that seems to confuse people often is that monkey thing. We did not evolve from moneys, and neither did they evolve from us. We as primates all evolved from the same species, not from each other. They took one route, we took another. Religion says that we were created perfect, and in gods image, so it's easy enough to believe that we were created perfect as something else, and then evolved into different things, which lack the perfection that we were created with. This also explains, if you wish to subscribe to that view, which is more logical than simply discounting evolution entirely, that people with homosexual tendencies, such as myself, are a product of evolution. This view also supports the idea that Homosexuality is not a choice and that it is only the fact that we as humans have drifted further from God(I believe due to the sin/devil is how the belief goes), that allows Homosexuality to exist. If you were to take this view as a religious person you would be more in the right, to feel pity for LGBT people, as they have not been given the same chance as Heterosexual people, to be absent of sin.

That's Evolution driven by God and Sin. Darwinism, but with the belief that some creatures evolved the way they did due to gods help.

Spoiler

In Genesis, the first book of the Bible, creation is recorded as being made perfect, without any sort of pitfall that could harm humanity. And then we made a choice. We chose to distrust God and find out for ourselves if sin was really as bad as God said. Well, it was and is. I don't blame God that we made that choice, but I thank Him every day that He had a plan to redeem us back again

.

The bit that you've mentioned is something that helps drive people to believe in Darwinism as I outlined above.