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Christian and Homosexual Stereotypes

Baldoraxx said:
Do you not look around you? Almost every country is in dept, ours is growing everyday. Its in the trillions. We are on the verge of being in another great depression. We are at war, we have been at war for years.
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Wait a second... scientific inquiry leads to Debt and a great depression... and war? WHAT?!?

I don't see the connection here. This was a left field comment.

You think War will just go away with faith?

Or we won't go into a depression because we just sit back and let sleeping dogs lie?

I think quite the opposite. If we do not try to better ourselves and the world as a whole, then why do we exist? It certainly isn't to make a society created "green back". It is to be with each other and explore what is in front of us. Our jobs are just a product of society, not a product of God.
 
Done with this discussion. I don't need my words to be twisted anymore. I said what i wanted to say. My views are only intensified from this thread.
 
I'm tired of just answering questions, let me ask you guys something. This is for the ones that reject the Bible, in whole or in part.

How can you be certain of anything? When you make a statement of belief or value that cannot be empirically proven by science, what standard or point of reference can you point at to back up your belief?

I'll give you an easy example- the topic at hand. Many, if not most of you, hold the position that homosexuality is 100% OK all of the time. But how do you know that for sure? Because it feels good to believe that way? We can trot out thousands of people who vehemently hate homosexuals and feel very good about that. Because it's best for society as a whole to accept them? Lots of countries reject that notion on the grounds of disease being spread, or just old-fashioned superstition. I know they are wrong because they contradict the Bible, but how do you know they are wrong?
 
Baldoraxx said:
Done with this discussion. I don't need my words to be twisted anymore. I said what i wanted to say. My views are only intensified from this thread.
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I'm sorry you got frustrated. Put the blame on me for not being able to understand you completely.
 
It
Keleynal said:
I'm sorry you got frustrated. Put the blame on me for not being able to understand you completely.
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s not your fault or anybody else's fault. I don't blame anyone else. I'm just done with this topic right now because it is getting nowhere. We all view the world in different ways and that's what makes us special
 
Baldoraxx said:
Done with this discussion. I don't need my words to be twisted anymore. I said what i wanted to say. My views are only intensified from this thread.
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I don't think anyone is twisting your words. We are replying to them. And unfortunately as is the case with most of these arguments, the minute logic, scientific proof, or something that is not the view you believe in is said, the conversation is over... You joined this conversation to what do what then? Just show God that you are a good soldier wearing your uniform the church gave you, but when the bullets start flying you take cover and have faith that if you die you did enough already?

"Faith" is the argument. Problem is no one is arguing faith. But without faith, without a female partner in wed-lock... we are but animals, bugs to be smooshed on the side of the road. Where is COMPASSION?

We are trying to talk about our thoughts, ideals, the world. Faith being used as something to further strengthen love, understanding, progress. God/Jesus holds open arms to his children, yet Christians shun them and treat themselves as the oldest child, pissed and cranky when the younger child is born and gets some of the attention.

That is my take on your response here. And I am not singling you out, I have seen it with the people who hold up the signs that say "God Hates Fags" Or picket the return of soldiers from Iraq during the funeral. THAT IS NOT what God intended. I don't care what religion anyone is. HATRED is what the "Devil" gave. It is natural to hate others, but it is righteous to show them compassion regardless. A gay man will not harm your children. A gay woman will not abduct your daughter from her home. They will live their lives, happily... why can't a Christian live theirs happily as well.

So much hatred for things that won't effect your "key" to heaven. And so much closed minded ideas about how "Faith" will fix the world around you. We fix what is in front of us. After-all we fucked it up in the first place by biting the apple. God wants us to prove ourselves. SO USE FAITH to do so, the faith that if we do enough and show enough compassion, love, and gumption to help the people around us to live, love, and cure diseases, that we may have shown by the time we die, enough PROOF to God, that our FAITH was strong, and we DESERVE to be let back into Eden.
 
Hasn't religion caused just as many deaths and wars (if not more) as science >_>

Just a snippet comment for the discussion 20 replies ago.
 
tr1age said:
I don't think anyone is twisting your words. We are replying to them. And unfortunately as is the case with most of these arguments, the minute logic, scientific proof, or something that is not the view you believe in is said, the conversation is over... You joined this conversation to what do what then? Just show God that you are a good soldier wearing your uniform the church gave you, but when the bullets start flying you take cover and have faith that if you die you did enough already?

"Faith" is the argument. Problem is no one is arguing faith. But without faith, without a female partner in wed-lock... we are but animals, bugs to be smooshed on the side of the road. Where is COMPASSION?

We are trying to talk about our thoughts, ideals, the world. Faith being used as something to further strengthen love, understanding, progress. God/Jesus holds open arms to his children, yet Christians shun them and treat themselves as the oldest child, pissed and cranky when the younger child is born and gets some of the attention.

That is my take on your response here. And I am not singling you out, I have seen it with the people who hold up the signs that say "God Hates Fags" Or picket the return of soldiers from Iraq during the funeral. THAT IS NOT what God intended. I don't care what religion anyone is. HATRED is what the "Devil" gave. It is natural to hate others, but it is righteous to show them compassion regardless. A gay man will not harm your children. A gay woman will not abduct your daughter from her home. They will live their lives, happily... why can't a Christian live theirs happily as well.

So much hatred for things that won't effect your "key" to heaven. And so much closed minded ideas about how "Faith" will fix the world around you. We fix what is in front of us. After-all we fucked it up in the first place by biting the apple. God wants us to prove ourselves. SO USE FAITH to do so, the faith that if we do enough and show enough compassion, love, and gumption to help the people around us to live, love, and cure diseases, that we may have shown by the time we die, enough PROOF to God, that our FAITH was strong, and we DESERVE to be let back into Eden
.
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This is exactly the Christian stereotypes that I was hoping to address by showing that not all (so called) Christians harbour hatred toward anything they find threatening. I have the same frustrations with organized religion in America that you do. I have some friends that no longer want to be called Christians because they feel it has been tainted and abused by those who have no right to identify themselves as such (The Westboro Baptist Church, infamous for thier picketing is the most obvious example).

I have separated myself from all denominations. I more agree than disagree with most of them, but the divisions are petty and completely unnecessary, and I think unhealthy. As a whole, Christianity in America has lost the plot. We are fat, lazy, compromising, and comfortable. There's a reason why believers in Christ thrive the most under persecution- it forces them to actually stand. Go to the Christians in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and China where they are torn from their families, held indefintely in jail without trial, and even executed. Ask them if God is real and has made a difference in their lives. Right now, today, Christians are suffering and dying for their faith, but here in America we split up churches because we can't agree on the color of the carpet.

I hate to say it, but I almost wish that the First Amendment were repealed and Christians here were forced to walk all their talk. Maybe then the church would wake up and realize that this isn't a game and God didn't save us for US, He saved us so we could be a part of the body of Christ and bring as much heaven as possible to the earth. I would rather we were real and uncomfortable instead of fake and in a lap of luxury. I literally weep when I pray about this. I'm holding back tears now.
 
tr1age said:
After-all we fucked it up in the first place by biting the apple. God wants us to prove ourselves. SO USE FAITH to do so, the faith that if we do enough and show enough compassion, love, and gumption to help the people around us to live, love, and cure diseases, that we may have shown by the time we die, enough PROOF to God, that our FAITH was strong, and we DESERVE to be let back into Eden.
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I fundamentally disagree with this part. Christianity is not about proving anything to God. We have nothing to prove; we have nothing at all. God is not impressed by our piety, good works, or proclamations of faith. We can never earn a place in paradise, and that's the whole point. God saw that our condition was completely hopeless. "God helps those who help themselves", not Biblical (from Greek mythology if I recall right). In fact, time and time again God helps those who CANNOT help themselves, but acknowledge their condition and surrender to Him.

That's why Jesus had to die. The price for salvation was too steep, the debt was too deep, the gulf was too wide- pick an analogy.

Religion says "Do this, this, and this; dont' do that. Do that enough and you will be rewarded." Christianity says "Jesus already did it. Accept what He did and be freed from sin." We don't obey God so we will be saved, we obey God because we are already saved. How could I not love, trust, and obey a God that gave me so much before I knew to ask for it? While I still hated and despised Him? I serve God out of gratitude and love, not fear of damnation. I stand in complete awe of the love of God, it surpasses all understanding.
 
Keleynal said:
I'm tired of just answering questions, let me ask you guys something. This is for the ones that reject the Bible, in whole or in part.

How can you be certain of anything? When you make a statement of belief or value that cannot be empirically proven by science, what standard or point of reference can you point at to back up your belief?

I'll give you an easy example- the topic at hand. Many, if not most of you, hold the position that homosexuality is 100% OK all of the time. But how do you know that for sure? Because it feels good to believe that way? We can trot out thousands of people who vehemently hate homosexuals and feel very good about that. Because it's best for society as a whole to accept them? Lots of countries reject that notion on the grounds of disease being spread, or just old-fashioned superstition. I know they are wrong because they contradict the Bible, but how do you know they are wrong?
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Got to the convo a bit late. West coast. egegurkurk.

I'm not certain of anything, really. I'm not certain of a damned thing. Even science can't 100% prove anything, it can only prove what it currently is capable of observing (up to, but not including, 100% frequency of re-simulation) . What is gravity? I know it's the attraction of two different masses towards one another...but why.

The last theory I heard was that it was a possible side effect of objects moving through zero point field (quantum theory). Well what the hell is that.

It's like every time a question is answered, a whole slew of new questions confounds. Lately, aspects of LeMarck's theory of evolution have been gaining ground again in science. And in a way that partially overrides Darwin. Really?

(Actually it's kind of cool, but that's a whole different thread)

Every galaxy has super massive black holes. A new theory proposes the idea that super massive black holes have entire universes at the center of them. WTF IS THAT SHIT.

I don't know a damned thing.

I should apologize about my bluntness. Kel, you've been incredibly gracious in this entire conversation. It's a heated topic to me because I've seen very good friends and loved ones struggle with the oppression that MoD described in his spoiler story. Crying themselves to sleep because they don't understand "what's wrong with them."

Most conversations I have with people when I disagree with them aren't anywhere near as tactless on my end. I usually ask a whole slew of questions, as you've done, regarding how one arrived to their conclusions and such. Indirectness is a beautiful thing sometimes.

So... I don't know. I don't know a damn thing.

But when I see someone cry. Suffer. In pain because all they want is to live happiness in their life? That I can relate to. See someone's rights be infringed upon by someone else? That I can relate to.

Golden Rule. Is that from the bible?
 
Baldo, I apologize if I was among those who turned you away from this conversation. You entered saying you're a very blunt person, which is cool. So am I at times. LoL.

I was just hoping to see a string of logic somewhere that I could follow. The "It's a choice" thing is still a strange argument to me. If it's deep seated and rooted in an intuited belief. That's fine. We're all different and such, and, as you said, that's what makes us all special.

Now if you'll excuse me, I just remembered something.

tumblr_lrubo4nV5i1qd7hayo1_500.png
 
The Golden Rule is from the Bible- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Almost everyone agrees that this is a good rule. I know it is good because it comes to us straight from God.

But how does the secular world know that it's good? Why does it matter how we treat others? Why can't I shoot everyone in line in front of me at Starbucks to get my coffee quicker? In the vast universe, the loss of such an insignificant amount of life means next to nothing at all. Why should I value it? Why should I be punished for taking it?

Edit- I appreciate your honesty, Dash, but let me be equally blunt. Your answer is just as much a cop out as a Christian beating a Bible and screaming "It says it so, so it's true!"

Maybe in the end, all we have is a cop out. A point at which we all have to say that we don't know. My faith catches me at that point. It tells that even though I don't understand it all, it's OK because God is ultimately in control and He does understand it all.
 
How can you be certain of anything? When you make a statement of belief or value that cannot be empirically proven by science, what standard or point of reference can you point at to back up your belief?
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It's difficult to be 'certain' of anything, you're right. I've actually struggled with this for as long as I remember. I often get scared (anxious/worried) about things that could happen, most specifically death. To be honest, when I was younger (but still after I had explicitly 'given up on religion') I still used to pray/speak to God to ask for things (hilariously, most of this was praying my ex-gf wasn't pregnant). There was a lot to be unsure about in my life and having this connection to something made me sleep a little better. This sort of relates to your follow up question regarding the point of reference. I felt secured by the thought process that I could shift my Wants (and consequences) from my own responsibility to something called Fate. Now fast forward to my teenage angst dissipating, I immediately broke away from this last bit of religion in my life. Currently, if I make a statement of belief or value I use 3 things as a point of reference; my brain, my heart and my morals. I do what I think is correct based on logic, love, or law. By focusing my behaviour on a combination of these reference points, I live my life with no regrets.

I'll give you an easy example- the topic at hand. Many, if not most of you, hold the position that homosexuality is 100% OK all of the time. But how do you know that for sure? Because it feels good to believe that way?
Click to expand...
.
Just to break down my conclusions from above;
Homosexuality is OK because, logically, I know that the sexual preferences of others don't play any effect on my life. I have gay friends that I enjoy the company of (as well as those who's company I don't enjoy) and understand that it is harmless.

Homosexuality is OK because, in my heart, I wouldn't want someone else telling me who I can or cannot be with. (I'm Jewish and married a Roman Catholic - our relationship works because neither of our family cares that we married outside the religion).

Homosexuality is OK because I have no right to judge the actions of others as wrong.
 
Baldoraxx said:
That part is wrong as well and should be upheld. But no, we have 13 years olds having sex now. Wtf your penis hasn't even got hair on it yet.

They put Obama into office, California and their liberals. Did they not see what he did the past 4 years?



Now i may not always do the "right" thing but i do try my hardest to do the "right" thing. As i said earlier, i am not a perfect person but i do try to stick to a standard that is down the "right" path.
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Lol, just saw this and thought of this. Not trying to point fingers at you Baldo, hopefully you laugh too!
 
Keleynal said:
The Golden Rule is from the Bible- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Almost everyone agrees that this is a good rule. I know it is good because it comes to us straight from God.

But how does the secular world know that it's good? Why does it matter how we treat others? Why can't I shoot everyone in line in front of me at Starbucks to get my coffee quicker? In the vast universe, the loss of such an insignificant amount of life means next to nothing at all. Why should I value it? Why should I be punished for taking it?
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Religion and spirituality doesn't hold a monopoly on compassion.

I used to think everything mattered. When I was younger. I got my head wrapped up and spun around into every little thing that was going on (and some things were huge and significant. Death, drug abuse, etc). Then I started meditating and pondering the world, universe, etc. Wound up thinking that too.

The world, universe, is this huge place. The further back you go in history, the less ANYONE mattered. We have thousands of celebs in the world today that people know. Even less people know Baldassare. The "Sun King". Nero would be forgotten had he not had mal-aligned folk-lore.

In the end none of it matters.

Then one day I realized...that was the point. None of it matters.

Except for the present moment. That is all you have. That is all you will ever have.

So now...everything matters again. Except for the drama.

And at the root of that.

Compassion.

Because.
 
Keleynal said:
How can you be certain of anything? When you make a statement of belief or value that cannot be empirically proven by science, what standard or point of reference can you point at to back up your belief?
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I think we can't be certain of anything, almost every scientist will tell you that. And for telling if something is right or wrong, it's a mix of personnal value (some personnal value like caring for the vulnerable around you, come from religion background, if you look at the society I live in 60 years ago it was extremely religious with a really powerful catholic church, in the span of 20 years the society became almost intirely secular, church are now 15% of what they had in the past but still some value are held) and some philosophic principle that have nothing to do with religion.

And even with those value I have no certainty of what i'm doing is right but i do to the better that I can. That is why I personally can't follow any religious or political dogma that talk over certain things with a certainty.
 
Dash said:
In the end none of it matters.

Then one day I realized...that was the point. None of it matters.

Except for the present moment. That is all you have. That is all you will ever have.

So now...everything matters again. Except for the drama.

And at the root of that.

Compassion.

Because.
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This is beautiful. Made me get chills. This thread aside this is just beautiful.
 
Drac said:
It's difficult to be 'certain' of anything, you're right. I've actually struggled with this for as long as I remember. I often get scared (anxious/worried) about things that could happen, most specifically death. To be honest, when I was younger (but still after I had explicitly 'given up on religion') I still used to pray/speak to God to ask for things (hilariously, most of this was praying my ex-gf wasn't pregnant). There was a lot to be unsure about in my life and having this connection to something made me sleep a little better. This sort of relates to your follow up question regarding the point of reference. I felt secured by the thought process that I could shift my Wants (and consequences) from my own responsibility to something called Fate. Now fast forward to my teenage angst dissipating, I immediately broke away from this last bit of religion in my life. Currently, if I make a statement of belief or value I use 3 things as a point of reference; my brain, my heart and my morals. I do what I think is correct based on logic, love, or law. By focusing my behaviour on a combination of these reference points, I live my life with no regrets.

.
Just to break down my conclusions from above;
Homosexuality is OK because, logically, I know that the sexual preferences of others don't play any effect on my life. I have gay friends that I enjoy the company of (as well as those who's company I don't enjoy) and understand that it is harmless.

Homosexuality is OK because, in my heart, I wouldn't want someone else telling me who I can or cannot be with. (I'm Jewish and married a Roman Catholic - our relationship works because neither of our family cares that we married outside the religion).

Homosexuality is OK because I have no right to judge the actions of others as wrong
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That definitely explains why homosexuality is OK for you, but what about everybody else? How can you tell anyone else that their hatred for and persecution of homosexuals is wrong? Their brain, heart, and morals tell them gay people are a blight and must be eradicated. What makes your belief system better than yours? The law is on your side, but only here. In Iran they kill gay people for violating the Sharea (probly misspelled) law. Is that whole government wrong for disagreeing with you, or are you wrong for disagreeing with them? Can you hold them (Iranians and hate crime commiters in America) accountable for their supposed crimes against humanity? Can anyone?

I don't think you have the authority or the right to tell me or anyone else that they are wrong because we all come to our conclusions pretty much the exact same way. You are no better or smarter than the next person and when it boils down to it, all you have is an opinion. Collectively, human beings are no better. Almost everyone would agree that even hundreds of our best and brightest government officials and scientists routinely make mistakes, make stupid laws, fall to corruption.

Without a solid Biblical foundation, all I can see is a huge pit of doubt and despair. I can't imagine living in a world like that.
 
Keleynal said:
That definitely explains why homosexuality is OK for you, but what about everybody else? How can you tell anyone else that their hatred for and persecution of homosexuals is wrong? Their brain, heart, and morals tell them gay people are a blight and must be eradicated. What makes your belief system better than yours? The law is on your side, but only here. In Iran they kill gay people for violating the Sharea (probly misspelled) law. Is that whole government wrong for disagreeing with you, or are you wrong for disagreeing with them? Can you hold them (Iranians and hate crime commiters in America) accountable for their supposed crimes against humanity? Can anyone?

I don't think you have the authority or the right to tell me or anyone else that they are wrong because we all come to our conclusions pretty much the exact same way. You are no better or smarter than the next person and when it boils down to it, all you have is an opinion. Collectively, human beings are no better. Almost everyone would agree that even hundreds of our best and brightest government officials and scientists routinely make mistakes, make stupid laws, fall to corruption.

Without a solid Biblical foundation, all I can see is a huge pit of doubt and despair. I can't imagine living in a world like that.
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I don't know about all of that crazy shit...

Telling someone to chill the fuck out when it comes to things that really don't affect them as much as they like to portray and actively persecuting someone for the same thing that really doesn't affect you are two entirely different things. There's no way you can sit here and pretend it's the same fucking thing. In that same sense of logic you just spewed, (whether it's your actual beliefs or just starting a discussion) could be spun around to say those that are against such senseless persecution have every right to destroy and eradicate those that do? Certainly not a way to solve anything. Being annoyed and irked at someone else's beliefs and orientation is one thing but to actively pursue and punish those for not being in line with you is some ignorant bullshit. If you truly believe these people are going to hell at the end of the day, who the fuck cares.. If you're right, they'll get what's coming to them, how is it anyone's place to step in and punish for "god"? So I just cheated on my wife and beat my kid but like you're gay and that's so much worse so I'm going to hunt you down and torture you so I get to feel better about myself and pretend I'm perfect and do no wrong because I follow god? Fuck. That. Shit.

Actively seeking out and hating someone can not be compared to tolerance and dealing with people believing in different things.

Edit:
I know my music isn't very much appreciated around these parts but this song kind of sums things up as far as I feel. I edited it in instead of making a new post because I figure it'll be overlooked anyways but whatever.



Who Decides Who Lives In This World?
Who Decides Who Dies In This World?
More Efficient Ways Of Execution
This Is Not A Type Of Resolution
Who Dares To Throw The First Rock?
Who Believes In Justice Being Done?
More Efficient Ways To Confess
We Got To Know The Truth No Less
Premeditated, Calculated, Precise
Created Cases Based On Races
Exchanging Life For Lies

Who Denies The Right To Defend?
Who Decides What Crime Is A Sin?
This Is Not A Way To Convict
It's Just Another Way To Conflict
Who Provides The Time For A Chance?
What Case Will Fall In Wrong Hands?
More Efficient Ways To Confess
We Got To Know The Truth No Less

Murder - In The First Degree
Murder - It's Only Revenge
Murder - Why , Why
Are We So Righteous To Declare That One Must Die

Premeditated, Calculated, Precise
Created Cases Based On Races
Exchanging Life For Lies

Murder - In The First Degree
Murder - It's Only Revenge
Murder - Why , Why
Are We So Righteous To Declare That One Must Die

Examples Being Made, In A Way Creating An Endless Cycle Of Violence
Have We Become What We've Hated Most About Ourselves?
When Mistakes Are Being Made, Who Is Going To Be The One To Blame?
Who Is Gonna Pay That Final Price?

Who Will Pay The Final Price?
Are We So Righteous To Declare That One Must Die?
 
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