Flying the Flag

[Euchale]

I agree with what Crake said, but this discussion is not necessarily going in the direction it should be. We should focus again on symbolism and not religion, sorry for bringing it into the thread.

 

[Baldoraxx]

There are militants in every camp, and both sides have done wrong at some time.

And I believe I said something about people using Jesus name to commit evil deeds. Might need to read my statements.

To put it more overtly, freedom of religion in a PRIVATE setting vs. display of religion from our governing bodies.

This statement here has made it's rounds thanks to liberal lawmakers twisting the constitution to their own needs. Thanks. It has been so blown out of context.

You do know many of Americas settlers who founded this country were persecuted and made this country with Freedom of Religion in mind so that people here wouldn't be persecuted the same way they were in Europe. And you can't deny that this wonderful God given country was founded by Christians on a Christian idealogy.

But as Euchale said, we have gotten off topic. The flag is a symbol and will stay a symbol. No matter how much the MSM wants to take it away. They will probably have to pry it out of the dead cold hands of southerners if they want it.

 

[Crake]

I agree with what Crake said, but this discussion is not necessarily going in the direction it should be. We should focus again on symbolism and not religion, sorry for bringing it into the thread.

Well they fall in similar camps and it's basically the same discussion imo. I think a lot of people respond very harshly to this kind of issue because they feel like freedom is being threatened. I think people need to be able to look at it from both sides before they comment on the issue or we will never reach an understanding.

I was raised in a very conservative household that held similar viewpoints to Baldo's and I was in that camp for a long time so I can see where he is coming from. My philosophy shifted greatly when it comes to certain things, such as symbols we use in our country that can alienate under represented groups and cultures.

I think both sides take things too far at times, and everyone needs to meet in the middle before they can understand what they are really fighting about. The problem is people have biases that are difficult to see past, and it feels like an attack coming from the other side (who also have their own biases).

 

[Baldoraxx]

I was raised in a very conservative household that held similar viewpoints to Baldo's and I was in that camp for a long time so I can see where he is coming from. My philosophy shifted greatly when it comes to certain things, such as symbols we use in our country that can alienate under represented groups and cultures.

And you know what Crake, I was raised in a household that had NOTHING to do with Jesus. I considered myself an athiest until I was 19...actually 21. I met my wife at 19 and became a Christian at 21. That is 3/4 of my lifetime being an athiest. So i see both sides of the story. I see where you are coming from but I just can't agree with you. that is where our country is at. A point of division based on peoples opinions and will always be that way until someone wants to make this country a communist country and I know I will take up arms to fight for that not to happen. When someone cries out discrimination I need to look at everything before coming to my conclusion and most of the time my thoughts are "Stop being such a baby, such it up and get on with your life"

 

[Crake]

And I believe I said something about people using Jesus name to commit evil deeds. Might need to read my statements.


This statement here has made it's rounds thanks to liberal lawmakers twisting the constitution to their own needs. Thanks. It has been so blown out of context.

You do know many of Americas settlers who founded this country were persecuted and made this country with Freedom of Religion in mind so that people here wouldn't be persecuted the same way they were in Europe. And you can't deny that this wonderful God given country was founded by Christians on a Christian idealogy.

But as Euchale said, we have gotten off topic. The flag is a symbol and will stay a symbol. No matter how much the MSM wants to take it away. They will probably have to pry it out of the dead cold hands of southerners if they want it.

I don't want to veer to far off topic, I do want to respond to this.

If you understand that people using Jesus' name to commit evil is a bad extreme, then you should understand that atheism has a bad extreme as well, so I guess that solves that dilema.

I think the 'liberal' accusation is used as a sort of alarmist strategy that drowns the real issue. I don't consider myself liberal or conservative, I consider myself a free thinking individual. I try very hard to be aware of my own biases and I admit that I do have many, as we all do, but this statement just sounds to me like you are anti-liberal thinking simply because it is liberal and does not offer a real justification for your argument. This country was founded on the basis of being free from persecution, so do you not think it would be wrong for those who founded it to persecute others that differ from them? I'm not asking if you think they are being persecuted, just whether you think it is allowable.

I think the flag issue has to do with progress. When you are hanging on to this symbol so strongly that you don't want to hear anything to the contrary of your own beliefs there will never be a point of understanding. If you take the extremes out of both sides of the argument I think there is a very real debate to be had over the subject.

I'm trying to minimize my personal opinions as much as I can in an effort to bridge the gap of misunderstanding we seem to suffer from in this country. I do have very clear views on how I feel on the matter, which basically come down to "Of freaking course a state building should not have a confederate flag" although I'm sure you've deduced that I would feel that way. I will admit that I have biases, and perhaps there are things I need to understand before fully engaging in a productive conversation with you, but I also feel very strongly that you are overlooking your own biases on the matter and react with the same "liberal media, liberal lawmaker" argument I hear all the time that gets us no where. To me it seems like you are more interested in dismissing someone else's opinion then discussing it and attempting to understand it.

 

[Keleynal]

I probably shouldn't get into this debate but.. freedom of religion also includes being free from subjugation to other's religions. For example, if a court house had a giant Kuran outside of it I'm sure the people that are up in arms when someone wants to remove a bible or other such christian lore from state property would flip camps immediately and be outraged. Historically Christians have enjoyed dominance in our government and as an atheist I am constantly reminded that this is a Christian country. I am told to proclaim that we are one nation 'under God' and other such things that go against what I believe, it's easy to made to feel like the country is pretty biased.. which it is. You need to understand that this bias exists before I can really take any argument seriously.

I don't equate having a statue or symbol by a courthouse with having subjugation to a certain group or ideal. It could be simply to pay tribute to important influence on the nation's legal code or to commemorate an important event.

I find it a little offensive that you assume that Christians would be in favor of denying rights or privileges to other religions. Just like the members of any other group, individual Christians run the full spectrum of rationality and insanity; love and hate.

I disagree that America is a Christian nation. I see it as post-Christian at this point. Christians have been losing the culture war for many years now. The faith group with the largest amount of growth in the last couple years have been the "none of the above." I think Christians have to get back to our roots of being forces for good in our own neighborhoods, impacting the lives of individual people and families. People are getting disillusioned about religion, and I think that's a good thing. People are searching for something that actually works.

I am mystified why the phrase "Under God" or having "In God We Trust" on currency is so hard to accept. If no real deity is being invoked, then isn't it just a callback to the nation's heritage? I can understand atheists not sharing the same sentiment towards it, but the outright hostility is a bit much. It used to be that the Christians were the militant ones, looking to burn at the stake anyone that disagreed. Now the atheists seem to have taken up the torch.

 

[Crake]

And you know what Crake, I was raised in a household that had NOTHING to do with Jesus. I considered myself an athiest until I was 19...actually 21. I met my wife at 19 and became a Christian at 21. That is 3/4 of my lifetime being an athiest. So i see both sides of the story. I see where you are coming from but I just can't agree with you. that is where our country is at. A point of division based on peoples opinions and will always be that way until someone wants to make this country a communist country and I know I will take up arms to fight for that not to happen. When someone cries out discrimination I need to look at everything before coming to my conclusion and most of the time my thoughts are "Stop being such a baby, such it up and get on with your life"

At what point do you stop belittling dilemmas people face - clearly it is an issue and clearly we need to remedy it. How many times can you tell someone to suck it up before you have to genuinely start caring about their life, their experience, and their wishes fore the future? We won't ever advance if that is the philosophy on the matter.

Just an out of discussion note: I am not getting upset in any way by this discussion, and I think it is interesting. If it is causing too much of an issue I can stop. I can also keep going if it seems worth continuing.

 

[Crake]

I don't equate having a statue or symbol by a courthouse with having subjugation to a certain group or ideal. It could be simply to pay tribute to important influence on the nation's legal code or to commemorate an important event.

I find it a little offensive that you assume that Christians would be in favor of denying rights or privileges to other religions. Just like the members of any other group, individual Christians run the full spectrum of rationality and insanity; love and hate.

I disagree that America is a Christian nation. I see it as post-Christian at this point. Christians have been losing the culture war for many years now. The faith group with the largest amount of growth in the last couple years have been the "none of the above." I think Christians have to get back to our roots of being forces for good in our own neighborhoods, impacting the lives of individual people and families. People are getting disillusioned about religion, and I think that's a good thing. People are searching for something that actually works.

I am mystified why the phrase "Under God" or having "In God We Trust" on currency is so hard to accept. If no real deity is being invoked, then isn't it just a callback to the nation's heritage? I can understand atheists not sharing the same sentiment towards it, but the outright hostility is a bit much. It used to be that the Christians were the militant ones, looking to burn at the stake anyone that disagreed. Now the atheists seem to have taken up the torch.

Going off topic again - this is hard to discuss briefly so maybe we need a new rant? I could go into some 'what if' scenarios and such, but I really need to sleep and I don't want to totally hijack this discussion.

 

[Euchale]

I always have a hard time when people say:

I find it a little offensive that you assume that Christians would be in favor of denying rights or privileges to other religions.

Because in America it is ok to post this:

But not this:

 

[Keleynal]

I always have a hard time when people say:



Because in America it is ok to post this:

But not this:

Why is the second one not OK? I need more context to understand your point.

 

[Euchale]

Why is the second one not OK? I need more context to understand your point.

Watch any of: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...ie=UTF-8#q=fox+news+atheist+billboard&tbm=vid

 

[Crake]

I always have a hard time when people say:



Because in America it is ok to post this:

But not this:

I mean, Im actually ok with Atheists and Christians bickering on privately owned turf with their own money. I do think it sucks that this happens in our country. My issue is with it being a continued part of the government. But again, another discussion for another time? I need sleep for realz

Also, the second one faces way more flak in our country and this is part of the problem as far as freedom of expression.

 

[Keleynal]

Going off topic again - this is hard to discuss briefly so maybe we need a new rant? I could go into some 'what if' scenarios and such, but I really need to sleep and I don't want to totally hijack this discussion.

Bah, we've had at it before. If you want to talk, I'm fine with that, but this is something we've hashed out before.

 

[Euchale]

Baldo may post one more time and then no more god talk

 

[Baldoraxx]

Just an out of discussion note: I am not getting upset in any way by this discussion, and I think it is interesting. If it is causing too much of an issue I can stop. I can also keep going if it seems worth continuing.

Same here, I like it. I haven't had a good discussion like this in a while.

At what point do you stop belittling dilemmas people face - clearly it is an issue and clearly we need to remedy it. How many times can you tell someone to suck it up before you have to genuinely start caring about their life, their experience, and their wishes fore the future? We won't ever advance if that is the philosophy on the matter.

Nobody will be belittled in the point where the person is told to suck it up. It would be that way for the hundreds if not millions before them. For one person to say that it is wrong for them then where do we stop. Do we change every single rule just because someone doesn't "agree" with them? Rules are there to protect us and to give us the freedom that we need. I mean, we could be a country where the government decides EVERYTHING and the people have no say in the matter. That could be us, this country is great and I think a lot of people take this for granted. I know sometimes I take it for granted.

 

[Crake]

Same here, I like it. I haven't had a good discussion like this in a while.



Nobody will be belittled in the point where the person is told to suck it up. It would be that way for the hundreds if not millions before them. For one person to say that it is wrong for them then where do we stop. Do we change every single rule just because someone doesn't "agree" with them? Rules are there to protect us and to give us the freedom that we need. I mean, we could be a country where the government decides EVERYTHING and the people have no say in the matter. That could be us, this country is great and I think a lot of people take this for granted. I know sometimes I take it for granted.

No, I agree that we need to chill out on the "PC' discussion and it does get taken too far too often. But I do think we need to take the time for the bigger issues. It's not going to be easy but I think it should be done.

STOP ENTICING ME I NEED TO SLEEP /rant

 

[Baldoraxx]

so do you not think it would be wrong for those who founded it to persecute others that differ from them?

How are we persecuting them? If someone in school doesn't want to singe the national anthem they are allowed to sit, if someone doesn't want to be a part of the prayer then they can sit there silently and continue on with their life afterwards. What part is persecution? Persecution is hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

Keleynal - I am mystified why the phrase "Under God" or having "In God We Trust" on currency is so hard to accept. If no real deity is being invoked, then isn't it just a callback to the nation's heritage? I can understand atheists not sharing the same sentiment towards it, but the outright hostility is a bit much. It used to be that the Christians were the militant ones, looking to burn at the stake anyone that disagreed. Now the atheists seem to have taken up the torch.

Completely agree with you here Kel.

Baldo may post one more time and then no more god talk

just for you. God loves you Euchale. See, no hostility, just good intentions.[DOUBLEPOST=1435328238,1435328154][/DOUBLEPOST]

STOP ENTICING ME I NEED TO SLEEP /rant

Go to sleep then, this discussion isn't going anywhere

 

[Keleynal]

Watch any of: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=fox news atheist billboard&tbm=vid

My work blocks me from watching those, but I get the idea.

When these billboards went up, it was news for a couple reasons- 1. Billboards with these messages had never been seen before, and 2. Christian billboards had been nothiced and reported on before, so it wouldn't be right to ignore these.

Media these days in America is biased. Some networks tend towards a liberal bias, and other like Fox News have a conservative bias. Most of the bias on the networks comes through in the form of opinion commentary. Not that the news itself is ever slanted, but the opinions are where all the big bombs get thrown. People want to freak out about stuff, I get that. But to say that the atheist billboards are not allowed just because some people don't like them just isn't the case. Many people were just as upset over the Christian billboards. To my knowledge, no billboards were taken down, neither by the government nor by rioters or crazy Christian or atheist militants.

The billboards did what they were supposed to do, which is spark discussion. News media like Fox make money by inciting emotion, but don't think they somehow represent actual majority opinion.

Now, if either of those billboard was in front of the courthouse on public property, I'd have a big problem with that. I see it as the same as the Confederate flag. Messages like that just don't belong there.

 

[Baldoraxx]

My work blocks me from watching those, but I get the idea.

When these billboards went up, it was news for a couple reasons- 1. Billboards with these messages had never been seen before, and 2. Christian billboards had been nothiced and reported on before, so it wouldn't be right to ignore these.

Media these days in America is biased. Some networks tend towards a liberal bias, and other like Fox News have a conservative bias. Most of the bias on the networks comes through in the form of opinion commentary. Not that the news itself is ever slanted, but the opinions are where all the big bombs get thrown. People want to freak out about stuff, I get that. But to say that the atheist billboards are not allowed just because some people don't like them just isn't the case. Many people were just as upset over the Christian billboards. To my knowledge, no billboards were taken down, neither by the government nor by rioters or crazy Christian or atheist militants.

The billboards did what they were supposed to do, which is spark discussion. News media like Fox make money by inciting emotion, but don't think they somehow represent actual majority opinion.

Now, if either of those billboard was in front of the courthouse on public property, I'd have a big problem with that. I see it as the same as the Confederate flag. Messages like that just don't belong there.

I was so close to agreeing with everything

 

[Keleynal]

How are we persecuting them? If someone in school doesn't want to singe the national anthem they are allowed to sit, if someone doesn't want to be a part of the prayer then they can sit there silently and continue on with their life afterwards. What part is persecution? Persecution is hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

You aren't being sensitive enough. Imagine if you had to listen to a creed that you don't believe in every single day while it is chanted by everyone around you. Sure, you can choose not to participate, but how does that make someone feel to be singled out and different like that? Especially a kid? A lot of times, they just start going with the flow. At first just to fit in, but over time their beliefs can be changed and they can become part of the group. And that's called brainwashing.

I don't think the Pledge of Allegiance is anything so insidious, but that's how the situation is viewed by many now. If my kids and I lived in North Korea, it would be a struggle to fight against the pervasive worship of their Glorious Leader. America is nowhere near that oppressive when it come to Christianity, but people want to guard against it becoming that way. Some think the best way to do that is to remove any and all toeholds, no matter how slight. We just need to get along.